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Dale Eastman:

--- Quote from: Ms. xxxxxxxx ---I cannot speak for you and whenever I try speaking for others, I always get it wrong. Sorry.
--- End quote ---

I view you as meaning well... Perhaps trying to speed the dialog between others and myself along.

As to conveying my position, I've been putting together a web site for awhile and I have 3,591 posts as Habenae Est Dominatus on http://marcstevens.net/board/index.php.

--- Quote from: Ms. xxxxxxxx ---As far as were those 3 horrible things right? NO. Of course they were not right. Might does not make right. I was wrong. You win this round. Nice job.
--- End quote ---

Thank you for being gracious enough to admit to having your mind changed.

I like to ask, How many people did Hitler kill?

Those up on history and the holocaust will answer, About 6 million. This answer is wrong. The approximate 6 million killed were killed by those obeying (alleged) authority.

Innate to the concept of authority is the indoctrinated belief in a duty to obey. And since law is alleged to have authority, innate to the concept of law is the indoctrinated duty to obey the laws.

My observations about law:

This is why I draw a line between authority by consent and authority by extortion.

Dale Eastman:

--- Quote ---How does one acquire authority if not by force?
--- End quote ---

By consent. But you anticipated that was the answer I would give you as indicated by your existing next post.

--- Quote ---NOBODY consented to be governed -- why do I keep hearing that argument over and over
--- End quote ---

Because that's the PR bullshit the people have been given while incarcerated in the government indoctrination centers (public high school).

The PR bullshit:

--- Quote ---They are endowed by their Creator with inherent and unalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
--- End quote ---

Bullshit because... Logic.

--- Quote from: Larken Rose ---There are two basic ways in which people can interact: by mutual agreement, or by one person using threats or violence to force his will upon another. The first can be labeled “consent”– both sides willingly and voluntarily agreeing to what is to be done. The second can be labeled “governing” – one person controlling another. Since these two – consent and governing – are opposites, the concept of “consent of the governed” is a contradiction.
--- End quote ---

--- Quote ----- we had no choice
--- End quote ---

You always have a choice. You just can't be faulted for making your choice a pragmatic choice while staring into the barrel of a government gun.

--- Quote --- - they assigned us a number when we were born and they own us.
--- End quote ---

Uh, yeah... 'bout that number...

--- Quote ---Must my child have a Social Security number?
Getting a Social Security number for your newborn is voluntary.
--- End quote ---
Source: Page 1: https://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10023.pdf

--- Quote ---[…] to convince me that people can evolve enough to make voluntarism work.
--- End quote ---

I would have concerns about this if not for a bunch of other thoughts in my head.

As to what needs to evolve, you're getting there. I know from reading some of your other posts, you and I see the same problems.

What we do not share is our conclusions as to what is causing those problems, And thus we just can't reach the same conclusions on what needs to be done to solve those problems.

Dale Eastman:

--- Quote from: Ms. X ---I do not think people will consent to take care of those who do not produce and they will die just as the weakest animals die in the jungle.
--- End quote ---

I have had very good luck getting things by politely asking. Personally I've never experienced anything worse than having my request declined. Common sense and I guaranty that one will never hear yes if the request is not made.

I ended up being the defacto leader of my neighborhood peers about 1974. It was just after Halloween and we were cruising in the family station wagon. My fellow hooligans wanted to steal four huge pumpkins from a front yard. I said go knock on the door and ask. Netted, two each, two foot diameter pumpkins. Rolled them out the back of that wagon at 60 mph. (Warm fuzzy at that memory.)

I was estranged from my mother for 11 years. Upon reconciliation, out of my portion of the inheritance from my sperm donor's estate, I paid for the headstone of my brother, 18 months younger than I, who died at 6 months of age. It took 53 years, but the father paid for the headstone. There is no doubt that death had a very large impact on mother.

I said yes when asked to become guardian of her person and estate. One brother couldn't even bother to return the guardian ad litem's phone calls. I pragmatically obeyed the guardian rules until she died.

Mother was living in an assisted living facility, I was the primary care giver for my step dad's hospice. Sorta like sitting shiva for the living dead with the added thrill of cleaning up shit when he fouled himself. He raised another man's children. I owed him.

I'm a firm believer in Actions Have Consequences. If I had been asked to become guardian during that estrangement, the answer would have been a very impolite and unqualified no. Be nice to your relatives. If you are not nice to them, they can always say no.

Down on your luck? Treated me badly? Actions have consequences. Tough shit.

What do you mean by produce?

One doesn't get less productive than lying on a bed dying.

--- Quote from: Ms. X ---That is not the kind of world I want to build.
--- End quote ---

A little grandiosity there? Do you think you are the sole builder of the world?

--- Quote from: Ms. X ---I believe coercion is necessary to reduce inequality.
--- End quote ---

How's that coercion working for you?
Both coercion and inequality exist right now.
The first does not and can not cancel the second.

A short story of reductio ad absurdum to its disproof of your idea.
I will resist your coercion until one or both of us is dead.
Now tell me how either one or both of us being dead alleviates the inequality.

And speaking of the inequality, how about some specifics so we can compare our thoughts regarding the cause(s) of the various inequalities.

--- Quote from: Ms. X ---Do you disagree that racism and greed are the primary problems?
--- End quote ---

I do not agree that racism and greed are primary problems.
I do agree that they are problems.

By now I assume you've figured out I have six friends; What, When, Where, Who, How, and Why.

Dale Eastman:
I wrote: Innate to the concept of authority is the indoctrinated belief in a duty to obey.

--- Quote from: Ms. X ---That is true of my parents but not me. I have always figured out how to break all the laws I did not approve of and get away with it. I felt no duty to obey, just a duty to fool everyone into thinking I'm obedient.
--- End quote ---

With great amusement...
 :D You anarchist, you!  :D

With this post, you highlight a point I intended to bring up:
You did not consent to those laws, proving even extortion as authority requires consent, while you are not looking into the barrel of a government gun.

Dale Eastman:

--- Quote ---D is trying to explain why voluntarism will work and he argues well.
--- End quote ---

Actually I have only been arguing that the only valid authority is authority given by consent. Anything else called authority is extortion.

That debate has been saved here:

Is there any way the inventor of the wheel could explain how is invention would be used in the future?


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