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Dale Eastman:
--- Quote from: 15 1205 --- btw we sent out his computer to the address you gave and hopefully you'll be able to get it back soon.
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--- Quote from: 15 1244 ---Yes, thank you. Hubby has been in touch with the recipient and hopefully everything goes smoothly and he'll have it soon.
And in response to self defense...
Yes women are at a disadvantage, but that still doesn't change the fact that you are always the only one responsible for your own defense. Unless you want to hire security personnel to shadow you.
And I don't go straight to lethal defense, I apply as much force as necessary to stop the aggression.
Yes, the element of surprise is great to have. I have used it and put the guy on the floor, then was able to get away.
Sometimes it may not be enough.
Having a tool that gives you an edge, especially as a women, is only common sense to me.
And the vast majority of incidence of using a gun to stop an assault ends with no shots fired. In other words, just the sight of the gun stopped the attack.
Waiting for someone to help you is helplessness and may leave you harmed, raped or killed. I've read many lawsuits against the state where such has happened. The woman called the cops, but they never came (or they came but never engaged). When sued after such events, the courts have ruled, with unfailing consistency, in favor of the state and that the cops are NOT responsible for your safety or defense and it is your responsibility.
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--- Quote from: 15 1249 ---and to your question about if I would "support the Constitution" if it had been instituted in a different way, no. Because it doesn't matter how it was created, but what it says it creates.
A centralized authority.
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--- Quote from: 15 1332 --- "you are the only one responsible for your safety". You say that over and over again, like it is profound, but it doesn't really mean anything. Of course you are the only one who is ultimately responsible for your own safety, but that doesn't negate the fact that other people do want to help people in distress. Including, wait for it... Police officers.
Don't succumb to the 100% or 0% fallacy. The police help astronomically more than they hurt, and that 1% of 1% that you're mad about is something we are all mad about. You have a skewed view of people in police work and obviously are part of the ACAB crowd. I have marched against police violence with plenty of ACAB people and understand the anger, especially with the BLM protests happening. Our police department in Flagstaff marched with us, BTW, until they were threatened over and over by the ACAB crowd. You understand that? The POLICE were marching against POLICE BRUTALITY until ACAB started throwing things at them, screaming at them, broke a window at the police station, etc. It got really disgusting. Stop dehumanizing police officers and think about what can be done to help reduce the number of unnecessary shootings. The thing, too, that you don't seem to think about is that police officers get a heck of a lot more firearm, least-force-necessary, de-escalation training than any citizen, and they still make mistakes. Imagine a bunch of scared, untrained, armed people making unchecked decisions 24/7 with no regulation and no oversight. What a nightmare.
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--- Quote from: 15 1429 ---𝓢: I will respond to one thing you said, though, because it shows pretty clearly how your brain works.
And I will respond to your response, "𝓫𝓮𝓬𝓪𝓾𝓼𝓮 𝓲𝓽 𝓼𝓱𝓸𝔀𝓼 𝓹𝓻𝓮𝓽𝓽𝔂 𝓬𝓵𝓮𝓪𝓻𝓵𝔂 𝓱𝓸𝔀 𝔂𝓸𝓾𝓻 𝓫𝓻𝓪𝓲𝓷 𝔀𝓸𝓻𝓴𝓼."
You prefer to beat the stuffing out of a pair of bib overalls and not discussing my challenges to YOUR beliefs.
𝓢: 𝓘 𝓼𝓴𝓲𝓶𝓶𝓮𝓭 𝓶𝓸𝓼𝓽 𝓸𝓯 𝔀𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝔂𝓸𝓾 𝔀𝓻𝓸𝓽𝓮 𝓪𝓷𝓭, 𝓪𝓼 𝓮𝔁𝓹𝓮𝓬𝓽𝓮𝓭, 𝓲𝓽'𝓼 𝓪 𝓫𝓾𝓷𝓬𝓱 𝓸𝓯 𝓯𝓪𝓵𝓼𝓮 𝓷𝓸𝓷𝓼𝓮𝓷𝓼𝓮, 𝓪𝓷 𝓮𝓯𝓯𝓮𝓭-𝓾𝓹 𝓶𝓸𝓻𝓪𝓵 𝓬𝓸𝓶𝓹𝓪𝓼𝓼, 𝓭𝓮𝓵𝓾𝓼𝓲𝓸𝓷𝓪𝓵 𝓽𝓱𝓲𝓷𝓴𝓲𝓷𝓰, 𝓬𝓸𝓷𝓯𝓲𝓻𝓶𝓪𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷 𝓫𝓲𝓪𝓼, 𝓪𝓷 𝓸𝓿𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓬𝓽𝓲𝓿𝓮 𝓲𝓶𝓪𝓰𝓲𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷, 𝓪𝓷𝓭 𝓪𝓷 𝓸𝓿𝓮𝓻𝓭𝓸𝓼𝓮 𝓸𝓯 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓓𝓾𝓷𝓷𝓲𝓷𝓰-𝓚𝓻𝓾𝓰𝓮𝓻 𝓮𝓯𝓯𝓮𝓬𝓽. 𝓑𝓾𝓽 𝓘'𝓶 𝓷𝓸𝓽 𝓰𝓸𝓲𝓷𝓰 𝓽𝓸 𝓻𝓮𝓪𝓭 𝓪𝓷𝓭 𝓻𝓮𝓼𝓹𝓸𝓷𝓭 𝓽𝓸 𝓪𝓵𝓵 𝓸𝓯 𝓽𝓱𝓪𝓽.
Lemme introduce you to my six friends; What, When, Where, Who, How, and Why.
Now I will translate what you wrote:
𝓢: [I ignored] 𝔀𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝔂𝓸𝓾 𝔀𝓻𝓸𝓽𝓮 𝓪𝓷𝓭, 𝓪𝓼 𝓮𝔁𝓹𝓮𝓬𝓽𝓮𝓭, 𝓲𝓽'𝓼 𝓪 𝓫𝓾𝓷𝓬𝓱 𝓸𝓯 𝓯𝓪𝓵𝓼𝓮 𝓷𝓸𝓷𝓼𝓮𝓷𝓼𝓮, 𝓪𝓷 𝓮𝓯𝓯𝓮𝓭-𝓾𝓹 𝓶𝓸𝓻𝓪𝓵 𝓬𝓸𝓶𝓹𝓪𝓼𝓼, 𝓭𝓮𝓵𝓾𝓼𝓲𝓸𝓷𝓪𝓵 𝓽𝓱𝓲𝓷𝓴𝓲𝓷𝓰, 𝓬𝓸𝓷𝓯𝓲𝓻𝓶𝓪𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷 𝓫𝓲𝓪𝓼, 𝓪𝓷 𝓸𝓿𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓬𝓽𝓲𝓿𝓮 𝓲𝓶𝓪𝓰𝓲𝓷𝓪𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷, 𝓪𝓷𝓭 𝓪𝓷 𝓸𝓿𝓮𝓻𝓭𝓸𝓼𝓮 𝓸𝓯 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓓𝓾𝓷𝓷𝓲𝓷𝓰-𝓚𝓻𝓾𝓰𝓮𝓻 𝓮𝓯𝓯𝓮𝓬𝓽, therefor I don't have to address the specific things you wrote about.
Nescience is not knowing. Ignorance is choosing to not know.
Please explain, exactly, how these words are "𝓪 𝓫𝓾𝓷𝓬𝓱 𝓸𝓯 𝓯𝓪𝓵𝓼𝓮 𝓷𝓸𝓷𝓼𝓮𝓷𝓼𝓮"?
𝓢: You've decided that you get to decide the definition of words now, but you'll have to excuse those who stick with the true meaning.
𝓓: For a smart person, such as you have actually proven several times over, with double diplomas to boot, I am simply aghast at your presentment of your lack of knowledge of communication. A higher level educated person such as your self must surely be aware of what is referred to as "Voltaire's Admonition." Paraphrased as: If you wish to communicate, first define your terms.
𝓶𝓮𝓻𝓻𝓲𝓪𝓶-𝔀𝓮𝓫𝓼𝓽𝓮𝓻.𝓬𝓸𝓶 › 𝓭𝓲𝓬𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷𝓪𝓻𝔂 › 𝓭𝓲𝓬𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷𝓪𝓻𝔂
𝓣𝓱𝓮 𝓶𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓲𝓷𝓰 𝓸𝓯 𝓓𝓘𝓒𝓣𝓘𝓞𝓝𝓐𝓡𝓨 𝓲𝓼 𝓪 𝓻𝓮𝓯𝓮𝓻𝓮𝓷𝓬𝓮 𝓼𝓸𝓾𝓻𝓬𝓮 𝓲𝓷 𝓹𝓻𝓲𝓷𝓽 𝓸𝓻 𝓮𝓵𝓮𝓬𝓽𝓻𝓸𝓷𝓲𝓬 𝓯𝓸𝓻𝓶 𝓬𝓸𝓷𝓽𝓪𝓲𝓷𝓲𝓷𝓰 𝔀𝓸𝓻𝓭𝓼 𝓾𝓼𝓾𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓪𝓵𝓹𝓱𝓪𝓫𝓮𝓽𝓲𝓬𝓪𝓵𝓵𝔂 𝓪𝓻𝓻𝓪𝓷𝓰𝓮𝓭 𝓪𝓵𝓸𝓷𝓰 𝔀𝓲𝓽𝓱 𝓲𝓷𝓯𝓸𝓻𝓶𝓪𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷 𝓪𝓫𝓸𝓾𝓽 𝓽𝓱𝓮𝓲𝓻 𝓯𝓸𝓻𝓶𝓼, 𝓹𝓻𝓸𝓷𝓾𝓷𝓬𝓲𝓪𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷𝓼, 𝓯𝓾𝓷𝓬𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷𝓼, 𝔼𝕥𝕪𝕞𝕠𝕝𝕠𝕘𝕚𝕖𝕤, 𝓶𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓲𝓷𝓰𝓼, 𝓪𝓷𝓭 𝓼𝔂𝓷𝓽𝓪𝓬𝓽𝓲𝓬 𝓪𝓷𝓭 𝓲𝓭𝓲𝓸𝓶𝓪𝓽𝓲𝓬 𝓾𝓼𝓮𝓼.
𝓢: but you'll have to excuse those who stick with the true meaning.
𝓓: From the page the above quoted synopsis links to:
𝓖𝓮𝓽 𝓽𝓱𝓮 𝓶𝓸𝓼𝓽 𝓽𝓻𝓾𝓼𝓽𝓮𝓭, 𝕦𝕡-𝕥𝕠-𝕕𝕒𝕥𝕖 𝕕𝕖𝕗𝕚𝕟𝕚𝕥𝕚𝕠𝕟𝕤 𝓯𝓻𝓸𝓶 𝓜𝓮𝓻𝓻𝓲𝓪𝓶-𝓦𝓮𝓫𝓼𝓽𝓮𝓻.
𝓓: "True meaning"? When? You know damn well the meanings can drift with time.
𝕖𝕥𝕪𝕞𝕠𝕟𝕝𝕚𝕟𝕖.𝕔𝕠𝕞
𝕋𝕙𝕖 𝕠𝕟𝕝𝕚𝕟𝕖 𝕖𝕥𝕪𝕞𝕠𝕝𝕠𝕘𝕪 𝕕𝕚𝕔𝕥𝕚𝕠𝕟𝕒𝕣𝕪 (𝕖𝕥𝕪𝕞𝕠𝕟𝕝𝕚𝕟𝕖) 𝕚𝕤 𝕥𝕙𝕖 𝕚𝕟𝕥𝕖𝕣𝕟𝕖𝕥'𝕤 𝕘𝕠-𝕥𝕠 𝕤𝕠𝕦𝕣𝕔𝕖 𝕗𝕠𝕣 𝕢𝕦𝕚𝕔𝕜 𝕒𝕟𝕕 𝕣𝕖𝕝𝕚𝕒𝕓𝕝𝕖 𝕒𝕔𝕔𝕠𝕦𝕟𝕥𝕤 𝕠𝕗 𝕥𝕙𝕖 𝕠𝕣𝕚𝕘𝕚𝕟 𝕒𝕟𝕕 𝕙𝕚𝕤𝕥𝕠𝕣𝕪 𝕠𝕗 𝔼𝕟𝕘𝕝𝕚𝕤𝕙 𝕨𝕠𝕣𝕕𝕤, 𝕡𝕙𝕣𝕒𝕤𝕖𝕤, 𝕒𝕟𝕕 𝕚𝕕𝕚𝕠𝕞𝕤. 𝕀𝕥 𝕚𝕤 𝕡𝕣𝕠𝕗𝕖𝕤𝕤𝕚𝕠𝕟𝕒𝕝 𝕖𝕟𝕠𝕦𝕘𝕙 𝕥𝕠 𝕤𝕒𝕥𝕚𝕤𝕗𝕪 𝕒𝕔𝕒𝕕𝕖𝕞𝕚𝕔 𝕤𝕥𝕒𝕟𝕕𝕒𝕣𝕕𝕤, 𝕓𝕦𝕥 𝕒𝕔𝕔𝕖𝕤𝕤𝕚𝕓𝕝𝕖 𝕖𝕟𝕠𝕦𝕘𝕙 𝕥𝕠 𝕓𝕖 𝕦𝕤𝕖𝕕 𝕓𝕪 𝕒𝕟𝕪𝕠𝕟𝕖.
“𝓦𝓱𝓮𝓷 𝓘 𝓾𝓼𝓮 𝓪 𝔀𝓸𝓻𝓭,” 𝓗𝓾𝓶𝓹𝓽𝔂 𝓓𝓾𝓶𝓹𝓽𝔂 𝓼𝓪𝓲𝓭 𝓲𝓷 𝓻𝓪𝓽𝓱𝓮𝓻 𝓪 𝓼𝓬𝓸𝓻𝓷𝓯𝓾𝓵 𝓽𝓸𝓷𝓮, “𝓲𝓽 𝓶𝓮𝓪𝓷𝓼 𝓳𝓾𝓼𝓽 𝔀𝓱𝓪𝓽 𝓘 𝓬𝓱𝓸𝓸𝓼𝓮 𝓲𝓽 𝓽𝓸 𝓶𝓮𝓪𝓷 — 𝓷𝓮𝓲𝓽𝓱𝓮𝓻 𝓶𝓸𝓻𝓮 𝓷𝓸𝓻 𝓵𝓮𝓼𝓼.”
“𝓣𝓱𝓮 𝓺𝓾𝓮𝓼𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷 𝓲𝓼,” 𝓼𝓪𝓲𝓭 𝓐𝓵𝓲𝓬𝓮, “𝔀𝓱𝓮𝓽𝓱𝓮𝓻 𝔂𝓸𝓾 𝓬𝓪𝓷 𝓶𝓪𝓴𝓮 𝔀𝓸𝓻𝓭𝓼 𝓶𝓮𝓪𝓷 𝓼𝓸 𝓶𝓪𝓷𝔂 𝓭𝓲𝓯𝓯𝓮𝓻𝓮𝓷𝓽 𝓽𝓱𝓲𝓷𝓰𝓼.”
“𝓣𝓱𝓮 𝓺𝓾𝓮𝓼𝓽𝓲𝓸𝓷 𝓲𝓼,” 𝓼𝓪𝓲𝓭 𝓗𝓾𝓶𝓹𝓽𝔂 𝓓𝓾𝓶𝓹𝓽𝔂, “𝔀𝓱𝓲𝓬𝓱 𝓲𝓼 𝓽𝓸 𝓫𝓮 𝓶𝓪𝓼𝓽𝓮𝓻 – – 𝓽𝓱𝓪𝓽’𝓼 𝓪𝓵𝓵.”
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--- Quote from: 15 1509 ---you're the one inventing your own conclusions here. And you seem to think that others owe you their time and energy. I advise you to get over that, no one owes you an audience. Guess what? You don't owe me an audience either! You can simply not read this. It doesn't matter. This pointless back-and-forth based on your ludicrous postulate is an enormous waste of my time.
I'm especially thankful for the country I live in today, because I know that people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children. Your fantasy world will never become reality, thank goodness. Maybe you should think about getting a new hobby, idk.
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--- Quote from: 15 1322 ---You got that backwards. A cop's job is to treat everyone else as criminals. They are the ones dehumanizing all people they arrest (questioning and traffic stop are a form of arrest). They are enforcing edicts that are an aggression against people who have caused no harm. They are dehumanizing all others while in the role of state agent.
You being your own responsibility is profound and if you understood the implications, you would understand natural law better.
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--- Quote from: 15 1539 ---I don't agree at all with the first paragraph, and I have no more desire to "understand natural law better" than I have to understand the Rapunzel fairy tale. It's a fantasy.
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--- Quote from: 15 1621 ---the other thing that I really find disturbing about natural law believers/anarchists in general is that their vision of society without government includes an awareness that people will die. Innocent people. It's like "oh, you didn't know how to defend yourself? Sorry you died, but that's natural law." "Oh, you were too old to take care of yourself and had no family left? Sorry you died, but that's natural law." "Oh, you're a pacifist and don't believe in owning a gun? Sorry you died but that's natural law." "Oh, you're an orphan that no one wants? Sorry you died, but that's natural law." It's like passive aggressive genocide with a sprinkling of eugenics. And yet I'M the one accused of having poor morals. Unbelievable. It really boggles my mind.
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--- Quote from: 15 2054 --- a system of hierarchy can be different from a governmental (govern mental) system.
Do you think the majority would agree a system of "community guidelines" aught be made by the community and be one of voluntary association? Wouldn't that foundation alone make obsolete the unethical system of involuntary association?.. and we can build from there?
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--- Quote from: 15 2131 ---What Evan said 😁
He beat me to the punch.
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Dale Eastman:
--- Quote from: 16 0923 ---𝓢: This pointless back-and-forth based on your ludicrous postulate is an enormous waste of my time.
Yes. I understand your opinion that discussing your errant beliefs 𝒾𝓈 𝒶𝓃 𝑒𝓃𝑜𝓇𝓂𝑜𝓊𝓈 𝓌𝒶𝓈𝓉𝑒 𝑜𝒻 [your] 𝓉𝒾𝓂𝑒.
When you state your beliefs and opinions as facts, you, college person, should understand scholarly discussions of the errors will follow.
You made a specific implied claim that my 𝓅𝑜𝓈𝓉𝓊𝓁𝒶𝓉𝑒 is 𝓁𝓊𝒹𝒾𝒸𝓇𝑜𝓊𝓈.
I challenge bullshit when bullshit is presented as truth.
Please state my 𝓅𝑜𝓈𝓉𝓊𝓁𝒶𝓉𝑒. If you state it correctly, I will then ask for you to state why it's 𝓁𝓊𝒹𝒾𝒸𝓇𝑜𝓊𝓈
𝓢: I'm especially thankful for the country I live in today, because I know that people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children. Your fantasy world will never become reality, thank goodness.
What, specifically, are my 𝒷𝑒𝓁𝒾𝑒𝒻𝓈?
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https://www.facebook.com/debra.osborn.9231/
--- Quote from: 16 1010 ---EW then you're just renaming the hierarchy. Call it an Apple for all I care, Apple is going to piss you off the first time it makes a rule/law/"community guidelines" (how are those different things?) that you don't agree with. But maybe Debra does want that guideline/law, and now you have your first disagreement, and there you have politics in a nutshell. If you put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig, and calling a law a guideline isn't changing what it is. Calling community leaders by Apple, Orange, and Banana isn't going to change their role in society (although it would make town hall meetings much more entertaining). And what you are describing is exactly what the founding fathers were attempting to do when developing the democratic republic we now live within. Don't you understand? We've already been "building from there" for hundreds of years. If you don't want to "voluntarily associate" with the policies, laws, etc of the United States, then why don't you move somewhere else that more closely aligns with your values? Could it be because there is nowhere else? Could that be because large, complex societies can not possibly meet the expectations and qualms of every single individual? Luckily, we have several countries on Earth that do a pretty darn good job though. If you're American, I hope you understand the incredible privilege you hold on the world stage.
I am fortunate to live in a very citizen-driven community, and I realize that. Our citizens are vocal and very involved in local politics. I enjoy living here because I can see changes happen in real time. We have an excellent police force, low crime, almost non-existent violent crime, and a really wonderful balance between those who are more liberal minded and those who are more conservative minded (I believe we need both to provide checks and balances in society). The state I live in has lenient laws overall, and I still haven't seen a law that doesn't make sense.
If all else fails, you could always move to Texas. They are talking about seceding from the US (again). Though I doubt that law-and-order Texans are going to get on board with no laws. But they do like guns, so you have that in your favor.
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--- Quote from: 16 1032 --- it's simple. You state natural law as fact, when it is not. You believe society should be structured around "natural law", while I do not. Since we can not agree on either of those points, further discussion is pointless. Your insistence to attempt to control the conversation, down to the most trivial minutiae, based on your own personal laws of informal conversation (this is a discussion on Facebook, not a thesis) shows me that you have a controlling, micro-managing personality. Ironically, you might do quite well in medicine or law, so it's too bad you are opposed to such things.
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--- Quote from: 16 1058 ---𝓢: I'm especially thankful for the country I live in today, because I know that people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children.
You have just accused me of being willing to and intending to hurt you and your children.
Prevented by some magical reason tied to living in the 𝓾nited 𝓢tates.
Present your evidence that I, Dale Eastman, are willing to and intending to hurt you and your children.
Black law absolute defense against claims of libel is the truth. Truth is proven with evidence and testimony.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 16 1131 ---first, I didn't say "you", I said "people like you". And I didn't say anything about "intending" to hurt. But your ideals absolutely *condone* untimely death, as long as it falls under natural law. Like I said to Debra Osborn above, it's like passive aggressive genocide, with a sprinkling of eugenics:
"...the other thing that I really find disturbing about natural law believers/anarchists in general is that their vision of society without government includes an awareness that people will die. Innocent people. It's like "oh, you didn't know how to defend yourself? Sorry you died, but that's natural law." "Oh, you were too old to take care of yourself and had no family left? Sorry you died, but that's natural law." "Oh, you're a pacifist and don't believe in owning a gun? Sorry you died, but that's natural law." "Oh, you're an orphan that no one wants? Sorry you died, but that's natural law." It's like passive aggressive genocide with a sprinkling of eugenics. And yet I'M the one accused of having poor morals. Unbelievable. It really boggles my mind."
Plus the absolute certainly of war. If you really think that we wouldn't immediately plunge into civil war, and probably war with Russia (actually, they'd probably just drop a nuke on us knowing there would be no retaliation), then you're naive.
All that combined (actually, it would only take one of those things) shows me that if I or my children or anyone else died due to any of the above, the general reaction would be a shrug, instead of outrage at very preventable deaths.
To me, that shows a lack of empathy, a lack of ethics, and a lack of morality. You want what you want, to hell with the consequences.
If you really think it would be all butterflies and rainbows and none of that *bad stuff* would happen, then you're ignorant or naive.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 16 1412 ---𝓢: shows me that you have a controlling, micro-managing personality.
𝒯𝒽𝑜𝓊 𝒽𝓎𝓅𝑜𝒸𝓇𝒾𝓉𝑒, 𝒻𝒾𝓇𝓈𝓉 𝒸𝒶𝓈𝓉 𝑜𝓊𝓉 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝒷𝑒𝒶𝓂 𝑜𝓊𝓉 𝑜𝒻 𝓉𝒽𝒾𝓃𝑒 𝑜𝓌𝓃 𝑒𝓎𝑒; 𝒶𝓃𝒹 𝓉𝒽𝑒𝓃 𝓈𝒽𝒶𝓁𝓉 𝓉𝒽𝑜𝓊 𝓈𝑒𝑒 𝒸𝓁𝑒𝒶𝓇𝓁𝓎 𝓉𝑜 𝒸𝒶𝓈𝓉 𝑜𝓊𝓉 𝓉𝒽𝑒 𝓂𝑜𝓉𝑒 𝑜𝓊𝓉 𝑜𝒻 𝓉𝒽𝓎 𝒷𝓇𝑜𝓉𝒽𝑒𝓇'𝓈 𝑒𝓎𝑒.
Or in my own vernacular, stop calling my by your maiden name.
𝓢: first, I didn't say "you", I said "people like you".
Now as to the other 261 words of your post... It is my opinion that you are just making shit up as you go.
It is my observation that you ignore points presented. I do not know if this ignorance is deliberate, an oversight, or an overwhelming of simply too many points to focus on. Nor do I care why you do this. I will take notice that too many concepts and words confuse you and will adjust my posts accordingly.
Back to your words of bullshit.
𝓢: I didn't say "you", I said "people like you".
You have just accused myself and people like me of being willing to and intending to hurt you and your children.
I AM a person like me. So is your sister, EW & TW.
You have accused four people in this discussion of being willing to and intending to hurt you and your children.
𝓢: people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children.
Present your evidence that I, Dale Eastman, your sister Debra Osborn, Tim Wingate, and Evan Wade are willing to and intending to hurt you and your children. Prevented by some magical reason tied to living in the 𝓾nited 𝓢tates.
Black law absolute defense against claims of libel is the truth. Truth is proven with evidence and testimony.
(P.S. How did living in the 𝓾nited 𝓢tates work out for the American Indians aka Native Americans?)
--- End quote ---
XXX
--- Quote from: 16 1435 --- I already answered your question in my last reply. Parts of which, I noticed you are ignoring.
You DO know that Native Americans were not living under the current constitution, right?
In fact, one could argue that they were living about as close to your imagined natural law society as we can find.
How did that work out for them?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 16 1442 ---The misconception you seem to have about anarchy is that there are no rules.
Yes, there are rules. "Archon" the part of anarchy that is the noun, means ruler, not rules.
You are simply without an entity that has the sole right of aggression and monopoly on the use of violence.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 16 1444 ---rules that no one enforces. Sounds kinda pointless tbh.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 16 1510 ---All of that happens now. People die all the time who didn't know how to defend themselves. Or they die because they're a pacifist and don't believe in using defensive force, or no family to take care of them, or orphans on the street, etc. That will not happen more and could quite possibly happen less if people were free to do run charity without government red tape.
Anarchy is not a utopia, it merely recognizes that society is self organizing. And any belief in an entity that is an outside, centralized authority is illegitimate. All responsibility lies with the individual at all times, whether or not a centralized government exists and agents of such are also responsible for their actions, even if they think they can defer them to an "authority."
All commands, rules, dictates, "laws," mandates, etc that are immoral to do as a natural man or woman are also immoral as an agent of the state.
In other words, if it's wrong for you to do something, it's also wrong for the cop or state agent to do so, even if some politician passed a "law" that magically allowed that state agent to aggress against peaceful men and women.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 16 1521 ---so you want people who are not harming anyone to be harassed, caged or be defrauded because they are not obeying a rule?
Any "malum in se" law is enforceable by anyone. Anything else is a violation against another man or woman.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 16 1529 --- what would you do if you discovered the new world order that every president (ceo) of the Title 28 usc § 3002 15 "United States" means - (A) a Federal corporation (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/28/3002) since George H W Bush, has openly advocated, is about totalitarian control instead of freeing/liberating humanity?
Would you try to warn people? How? What would you say?
If a small group of corporate CEOs ran the world, why wouldn't we hear about it in the news?.. that they own?
The American Empire and its Media
https://swprs.org/the-american-empire-and-its-media/
https://swprs.org/wp-content/uploads/201…
https://swprs.org/wp-content/uploads/201…
🚩Coercive, deceptive, secretive, violence advocating people calling themselves "governments" and censorship-using social media platforms in bed together is an example of extremism.
🚩Interestingly, the American definition of terrorism is a reversal of the word's original meaning, given in the Oxford English Dictionary as "government by intimidation".
🚩Regulatory Capture: In politics, regulatory capture (also agency capture and client politics) is a form of corruption of "authority" that occurs when a political entity, policymaker, or regulator is co-opted to serve the commercial, ideological, or political interests of a minor constituency, such as a particular geographic area, industry, profession, or ideological group.
🚩When regulatory capture occurs, a special interest is prioritized over the general interests of the public, leading to a net loss for society. The theory of client politics is related to that of rent-seeking and political failure; client politics occurs when most or all of the benefits of a program go to some single, reasonably small interest (e.g., industry, profession, or locality) but most or all of the costs will be borne by a large number of people (for example, all taxpayers).
🚩If you suggest to the average man or woman that maybe god does not exist, he will likely respond with less emotion and hostility than if you bring up the idea of life without government. This indicates which religion people are more deeply emotionally attached to and which religion they actually believe in more firmly.
Larken Rose's
---- THE FIVE QUESTIONS ----
1) Is there any means by which any number of individuals can delegate to someone else the moral right to do something which none of the individuals have the moral right to do themselves?
2) Do those who wield political power (presidents, legislators, etc.) have the moral right to do things which other people do not have the moral right to do? If so, from whom and how did they acquire such a right?
3) Is there any process (e.g., constitutions, elections, legislation) by which human beings can transform an immoral act into a moral act (without changing the act itself)?
4) When law-makers and law-enforcers use coercion and force in the name of law and government, do they bear the same responsibility for their actions that anyone else would who did the same thing on his own?
5) When there is a conflict between an individual's own moral conscience, and the commands of a political authority, is the individual morally obligated to do what he personally views as wrong in order to "obey the law"?
... would you use quotes?
🚩Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.
- Woodrow Wilson
🚩In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.
- Franklin D Roosevelt
🚩For more than a century ideological extremists at either end of the political spectrum have seized upon well-publicized incidents such as my encounter with Castro to attack the Rockefeller family for the inordinate influence they claim we wield over American political and economic institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as 'internationalists' and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political and economic structure--one world, if you will. If that's the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.
- David Rockefeller
🚩The end goal is to get everybody chipped, to control the whole society, to have the bankers and the elite people control the world.
- Nicholas Rockefeller
The quotes above suggest and directly state an agenda.
Warnings and encouragements:
🚩Armies, debts and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few.
- James Madison
🚩There are two ways to enslave a country. One is by the sword. The other is by debt.
- John Adams
🚩When plunder becomes a way of life for a group living together in a society, they will create for themselves in the course of time a legal system which authorizes it, and, a moral code which glorifies it. 🧠 When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty.
- Frederic Bastiat
🧠 It does not take a majority to prevail...but rather, an irate tireless minority keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.
- Samuel Adams
🧠To eliminate statism is not to physically subdue the rulers, but to mentally liberate the ruled.
- Jakub Bozydar Wisniewski
🧠Emancipate yourself from mental slavery. None but ourselves can free our minds.
- Bob Marley (via Marcus Garvey)
🧠When enough people understand reality, tyrants can literally be ignored out of existence. They can't ever be voted out of existence.
- Larken Rose
...we should somehow appeal to all our friends and family in "law enforcement" and the military. Order followers are the people who keep the system of slavery in place and they serve and protect by serving the "powers that shouldn't be" with protection from those they want to rule.
We're taught as children that obedience to "authority" is a virtue and that doing as you're told makes you a good person and all of the worst tyrannies in history depended upon people believing that. In reality, being moral means following your conscience and doing the right thing even when "authority" tells you not to.
Changing people within the system changes nothing, because the people do not run the system, the system runs the people. We need the right systems, not the right people.
Do you think the majority would agree a system of "community guidelines" aught be made by the community and be one of voluntary association? Wouldn't that foundation alone make obsolete the unethical system of involuntary association?.. and we can build from there?
Not forgetting that dying societies accumulate laws like dying men accumulate remedies, legislation cannot force morality, and good people don't need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws.
To be and see the good one wants to see in the world, does one first become aware that happiness and freedom begin with a clear understanding of a single principle - some things are within one's control, and some things are not?.. That the only one you can improve is yourself, and by that you set an example which ripples out inspiration?
May I cultivate the serenity to accept that I don't have the right to violate others, the courage to change the things I can through voluntary interactions, and, the consciousness to never attempt delegating a right I do not have to politicians to violate others on my behalf.
Happening now:
End of slavery summit
https://nita.one/summit
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 16 1549 ---Just suggesting: T-y-p-e s-l-o-w-e-r, use smaller words, use less words.
(Yes, that was a disrespectful snarkasm because of Statist comments elsewhere in this thread.)
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 16 1559 ---On State sponsored school:
In our secular society, school has become the replacement for church, and like church, it requires that it's teachings must be taken on faith. - John Taylor Gatto School is about learning to wait your turn, however long it takes to come, if ever. And how to submit with a show of enthusiasm to the judgement of strangers, even if they are wrong, even if your enthusiasm is phony. - John Taylor Gatto When you take the free will out of education, that turns it into schooling. - John Taylor Gatto Whatever an education is, it should make you a unique individual, not a conformist. - John Taylor Gatto It is absurd and anti-life to be part of a system that compels you to listen to a stranger reading poetry when you want to learn to construct buildings, or to sit with a stranger discussing the construction of buildings when you want to read poetry. - John Taylor Gatto I have come slowly to understand what it is I really teach: a curriculum of confusion, class position, arbitrary justice, vulgarity, rudeness, disrespect for privacy, indifference to quality, and utter dependency. I teach how to fit into a world I don't want to live in. - John Taylor Gatto NY State Teacher of the Year & 3x NY City Teacher of the Year That erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth. The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else. - H. L. Mencken (American journalist and essayist), 1925 It is, in fact, nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction have not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry... It is a very grave mistake to think that the enjoyment of seeing and searching can be promoted by means of coercion and a sense of duty. - Albert Einstein (Austrian-American physicist), 1951 Our whole constitutional heritage rebels at the thought of giving government the power to control men's minds. - Thurgood Marshall (U.S. Supreme Court Judge), 1969 A general State education is a mere contrivance for moulding people to be exactly like one another: and as the mould in which it casts them is that which pleases the predominant power in the government, whether this be a monarch, a priesthood, an aristocracy, or the majority of the existing generation; in proportion as it is efficient and successful, it establishes a despotism over the mind, leading by natural tendency to one over the body. - John Stuart Mill (British philosopher and political theorist), 1859 Take at hazard one hundred children of several educated generations and one hundred uneducated children of the people and compare them in anything you please; in strength, in agility, in mind, in the ability to acquire knowledge, even in morality--and in all respects you are startled by the vast superiority on the side of the children of the uneducated. - Leo Tolstoy …there shall be compulsory education, as the saying is, of all and sundry, as far this is possible; and the pupils shall be regarded as belonging to the state rather than to their parents. - Plato (Greek philosopher), The Laws, 4th Century B.C. And after 15,000 plus hours, and once obedience to authority becomes equated with virtue, you or your "child" can attend an academy. I was the CIA Director. We lied, we cheated, we stole... We had entire training courses... - Mike Pompeo The key to freedom and education is critical thinking skills. Without those skills it is harder to separate fact from fiction, truth from propaganda or even right from wrong. Those who exercise these skills and are autodidactic possess a more powerful defense against tyranny than all the guns and ammo in the world. Of course, keep your guns and ammo. Always be prepared to defend yourself against violence with no less than equal force (if possible - not forgetting there are very few private tank and anti-aircraft owners). https://youtu.be/CMhURei8N6Q
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 16 1600 ---𝓢: I already answered your question in my last reply. Parts of which, I noticed you are ignoring.
And I already called you out for calling me by your maiden name. I also called you out on your 𝒸𝑜𝓃𝓉𝓇𝑜𝓁𝓁𝒾𝓃𝑔, 𝓂𝒾𝒸𝓇𝑜-𝓂𝒶𝓃𝒶𝑔𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝓅𝑒𝓇𝓈𝑜𝓃𝒶𝓁𝒾𝓉𝓎.
I am now directly calling you out on your libel of myself and three others:
𝓓: You have accused four people in this discussion of being willing to and intending to hurt you and your children.
𝓢: people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children.
𝓓: Present your evidence that I, Dale Eastman, your sister Debra Osborn, Tim Wingate, and Evan Wade are willing to and intending to hurt you and your children. Prevented by some magical reason tied to living in the 𝓾nited 𝓢tates. Black law absolute defense against claims of libel is the truth. Truth is proven with evidence and testimony.
Second inquiry, directly asked and not implied:
Post your evidence that I, Dale Eastman, Debra Osborn, Tim Wingate, and Evan Wade are willing to and intending to hurt you and your children.
--- End quote ---
xxx
--- Quote from: 16 1625 --- I don't have time to address everything now, but wanted to comment on this:
"All of that happens now. People die all the time who didn't know how to defend themselves..." Or are physically unable to. It will happen more. Of course it will. Do you really think you could take on any reasonably sized healthy man? You couldn't. Unless you walk around with your gun cocked and ready 24/7, anyone with awareness can muscle you to a disadvantage. Or simply pull their gun on you. And now there are no police to respond, no one to report to, so murderers and rapists get away with it and escalate. Form gangs. Form mobs. This is the way humans act, like it or not. When you remove the threat of a jail cell and a judge with a gavel, you're asking for the underbelly of human behavior to show. Passive aggressive genocide of the weak and unskilled.
"...Or they die because they're a pacifist and don't believe in using defensive force,..." That's not what I meant. In a world where the guy with the biggest gun gets what he wants (because let's be honest, why wouldn't that happen? He knows no one is going to arrest him, right? No judge or jury, right?), then pacifists are selectively killed off. Passive aggressive genocide of the peaceful.
"...or no family to take care of them, or orphans on the street, etc. That will not happen more and could quite possibly happen less if people were free to run charity without government red tape." Elderly people with no family are currently cared for by... You guessed it... The government. Without government help, the elderly homeless population would explode. And I'm not even going to talk about the people in care homes, that's just a sad reality of a whole lot of people who require a whole lot of care which is mainly paid for by Medicare. Passive aggressive senicide.
There are not many orphans on the street in the USA. Know why? Yup, the government. At any given time there are about 400,000 foster kids in the USA and about 100,000 waiting for someone to adopt them. Around 23,000 children age out of the US foster care system every year. Those numbers are bound to go up, too, if drugs are no longer illegal, since the majority of foster kids are in foster care due to parental drug use and subsequent neglect/abuse. Although maybe those numbers wouldn't go up, because we'd just let those kids die instead of put them in foster care, right? Volunteerism is already never enough for the number of kids who don't have homes, btw. Even with financial incentives, people don't have the time, space, energy, or desire (same with caring for the elderly). Passive aggressive genocide of our most precious and vulnerable.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 13 1628 --- Dale Eastman for someone who hates the idea of law, you sure like to make-believe you are a lawyer.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 16 1630 ---what would you do if you discovered I've already read all this crap, because I used to live in your fantasy world?
Hey, if I escaped, you can too.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 16 1643 ---no, I only want people who are harming other people to be stopped or arrested. But harm is not just immediate physical danger. Speeding, running red lights, etc are all putting others at risk. Plus there is financial harm, etc. I believe we have already discussed this ad nauseam. Is there something in particular you want to discuss? Because we have covered this multiple times.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 16 1719 ---𝓢: Dale Eastman for someone who hates the idea of law, you sure like to make-believe you are a lawyer.
That is just you making up more shit about that you believe I am about.
I don't need libel laws to righteously call you a liar.
Now, third inquiry:
Post your evidence that I, Dale Eastman, Debra Osborn, Tim Wingate, and Evan Wade are willing to and intending to hurt you and your children.
--- End quote ---
xxx
--- Quote from: 16 1728 --- interesting that you're very bothered by my statement. For someone who relies on something like *luck* to prevent an A-bomb from being dropped on our heads, and who does not seem to worry at all about civil war (among a heavily armed society with an ocean of polarized beliefs and a healthy dose of toxic masculinity) I wouldn't expect you to care that anyone (me) noticed your lack of interest in safety, or preservation of life.
You, here, are the liar. You added the words "willing and intending" to my general statement and are now inexplicably outraged at your own words.
--- End quote ---
yyy
Dale Eastman:
--- Quote from: 17 0653 ---, it's the real world. The U.S. IS a corporation. "Regulatory Capture" is a REAL problem. Maybe you should read it again.
Sight of the reason for caring/connection with Agape is lost the moment one places another on a pedestal, or "looks down" on another, or takes pleasure in knowing another suffers, or harm is wished on anyone because they're anti or pro anything (democratic, republican, anarchist, statist, vaxx, etc). If you find yourself there, get out your compass.
If health (not the hokey pokey) is what it's really all about, and, as health is comprised of compassion, (natural, willful) peace (...not by force), love, companionships, friendships, happiness, family, community, freedom, access to (un████████) information for the opportunity to become intelligent and wise by a rightly free and critical thought process, mutually consensual contracts, creativity and co-creativity,...You probably get the picture...
𝙃𝙚𝙖𝙡𝙩𝙝 to All.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 0833 ---you know what? I agree with you. The powerful in the USA are the ultra rich, they have too much influence and are almost untouchable. Unchecked capitalism leads to the income disparity we see today. How do we fix this problem? There is only one way. And yes, it involves the use of laws. That's what really boggles my mind: if governmental controls are removed, income disparity will get even worse, not better. The powerful will become more powerful, because money IS power.
I also agree with you that anyone who looks down on others or takes pleasure in (or even hopes for) others' suffering is, to put it mildly, messed up. But standing for something, because you know it is right, is not the same thing.
Anarchism is morally, ethically wrong. Knowing what will happen to others, and still pushing for a violent model, is wrong. I know that you probably believe it is a peaceful model, but any analysis of the world powers, especially those who hate us, shows otherwise. I hate war. I hate the idea of being plunged into either civil war or world war. I hope you feel the same.
Anarchists appear, to me, to be eager for violence. I know you probably do not agree, but from the outside looking in, we see people who love guns, who seem to revel in the idea of standing in for police officers (who, ironically, they hate). With a wink and a nudge, they take care of their own business. No pesky laws to get in the way of using their firearms. No judge or jury to discover real intentions. I am extremely suspicious of anyone who wants to do away with our ability to use forensics to discover truth. Sometimes I wonder if anarchists don't understand how many violent offenders live among us. Or maybe they don't care about anyone but themselves, and have a false sense of security in their own questionable self defense skills. But yeah, as my daughter would say, "sounds kinda sus".
There are, unfortunately, many mentally disturbed individuals in the world. As a nurse, I've cared for quite a few of them. Murderers, drug addicts, robbers, you name it. Prisons don't have more than first aid capability, so typically when felons have health issues they have to come to the hospital. When I think of these charming characters just being out in society, it gives me chills.
I am very curious, too, to know: what is the plan? If anarchists really want change, how do they think that will happen? Or are they generally aware that it is a pipe dream that will never happen? Do they want to take over one state? One city? The country? Some other country? Or is it really they just want to be big mad about something that will never change? It seems pointless and such a waste of time and life. But maybe I just don't understand the goal.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---The idea that without government warlords would take power is absurd since warlords ARE in power. Anyone who says different is campaigning.
Are you ignoring the "regulatory capture" problem?..that dying societies accumulate laws like dying men accumulate remedies?..that good people don't need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws?..that legislation cannot force morality?..that to be and see good in the world, one will first become aware that happiness and freedom begin with a clear understanding of a single principle - some things are within one's control and some things are not?..that the only way to improve society is to improve yourself because the only one you can improve is yourself, and by that you set an example which ripples out inspiration?
The philosophy of voluntaryism, if realized, will likely be the skeleton key that frees Us from the shackles of parasitic, tyrannical psychopaths.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1008 ---𝓢: You added the words "willing and intending" to my general statement and are now inexplicably outraged at your own words.
Actually, I am amused at your squirming and making shit up in your attempt to get out from under your own words.
Since you have taken issue in my use of the words "willing and intending" I will refer back to your original lie exactly as YOU presented it:
𝓢: I'm especially thankful for the country I live in today, because I know that people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children.
I will now remove your words of magical thinking, so here's your words with the extraneous fat trimmed off:
𝓢: because I know that people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children.
And now the magic location thinking connective is removed:
𝓢: I know that people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children.
Are you going to claim that you did not succinctly imply that people with beliefs like me would hurt you and your children if not for your location in some magical location?
--- End quote ---
ddd
--- Quote from: 17 1051 ---please name the "warlords" in power. I mean in the USA, not the rest of the world. And then realize that it is the rest of the world who would love it if we were without government. You still haven't shared your feelings about that, I noticed.
My 8th grader could educate you on regulatory capture and why it occurs, and how to prevent and correct it (she just took an exam on this concept last week). It's not a mythical concept that no one but anarchists are aware of. And it's not "dying societies" where it occurs, it occurs in every society and corporation.
The "bad guys will break laws and good guys don't need them" argument is soooo tired. It's like, here's this giant spectrum of humans and behaviors, and you pick the 10% on either end to build an argument. The other 80% of people exist somewhere between "good" and "bad" or whatever you want to call it. Besides, accountability is the whole point; I don't know about you, but I don't want murderers and rapists and child molesters etc etc etc doing whatever they want and having zero ability to discover who they are or jailing them. Why are you ok with that?
Voluntarism is a fantasy. I'm happy that you somehow have that much faith in mankind to believe that that would actually work, but it won't. Sociologists have studied humans long enough to provide you with lots of research on the matter, if you're curious, but in general humans simply dehumanize others who they could "help" to assuage their feelings of guilt, in order to feel justified in not helping them. Move away from philosophy and into sociology for a while, so you can see how the world ACTUALLY works, instead of how your philosophy tells you it should.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1056 ---I think it's amusing that you think I'm "squirming and making shit up" in an attempt to "get out from under" my words.
I stand by what I said, and you can die mad about it, for all I care. 🤷🏼♀️ I am extremely thankful that I live in this country, and your crazy ideals have ZERO chance of actually turning this country into an anarchist society. Your crazy ideals can stay in your head, and they can't hurt me or my children. For that, I am extremely thankful.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1146 ---I wondered about that too, orphans and such. But I have seen it work, in a country that the government has absolutely nothing to do with such. Orphanages and homes/safe houses, drug rehab and care for the elderly are all provided by the people. Those charities and refuges don't get one dime from the government. It's all from the voluntary donations from the community.
I have seen society is self ordering in the absence of a coercive and aggressive political class. And people are compassionate to their fellow man...or children.
You know what? When Mexicans have asked me in the past how I liked Mexico, my response was, "it's awesome, there's a lot more freedom here." They've always seemed both surprised I would say that (because I'm a "gringa" from the US lol) and reaffirm that statement to me.
Most Americans here, either retired or on vacation, are smuggley convinced that they are free, while they try to petition the government of Mexico to enact more restrictions, codes, and laws. Which, of course, government is always all too happy to flex its power and push their growing weight around and extort more money from the people. Government are just a parasitical class. Anything they "provide" is just something to justify their existence in the minds of the men and women they are extorting.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1154 ---Risk isn't harm. And there are ways to make things safer without harassment and fines.
And fines only control the poor. I have known several rich guys that will ignore fines because they can afford to do so. One guy in Oklahoma, who had a Ferrari and took us for rides in it going 100 mph on surface streets. He'd blow right by the cops and they'd do nothing. Because he was paying a fee for the privilege to do so.
You know what? He slowed down for speed bumps 😉
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1200 ---what does your 8th grader say about Bilderberg, the CFR, the feral reserve..?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1210 ---the cartel runs much of Mexico. That's what a weak government creates. Mexico has a high risk of violent crime. Murder, armed robbery, sexual assault, kidnapping, extortion, etc. are all commonplace. Children are kidnapped and sexually exploited. The border is a cluster-duck (and I don't mean "duck") of children who were stolen by adults pretending that this kid is their kid, in order to garner sympathy for asylum. Ask Aaron about it, he saw it first hand.
By the way, Mexico is a Hague country. Adoptions are controlled by guidelines set by the Hague Convention. Orphanages are usually run off of *American* donations through missionary groups, which is why many of them end up closing down due to lack of funding (they do receive government funding, but not nearly enough to survive).
Mexico isn't exactly a shining example of what "more freedom" looks like. Or maybe it is, because it proves my point.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1226 --- I'm calling bullshit on your friend's story. Does he also have oceanfront property in Arizona? Tell him I'm interested. Lol.
Fines don't "only control the poor". The most miserly people I know have money. It's not just the fines, it's the marks on your driving record and increase in insurance fees and the annoyance of driving school. And felony driving can land you in jail. I haven't had a driving ticket in years, but the most annoying thing about it wasn't the money. And I was pretty dang poor back then, lol.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1233 ---0.2% risk isn't harm. 93% risk is harm. Nuance.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1259 ---You are not the first person I've had attempt to D⁶ me in discussion.
D⁶ - Dishonest attempts to Distract, Deflect, Divert, Disrupt, and/or Derail.
I am putting my very specific question back on the table directly in front of you.
𝓢: I know that people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children.
𝓓: Are you going to claim that you did not succinctly imply that people with beliefs like me would hurt you and your children if not for your location in some magical location?
--- End quote ---
ddd
--- Quote from: 17 1321 ---stop trying to gaslight me.
Again, yes, that's what I'm saying. The United States isn't magical, but there is no way Americans are going to give up their rights, freedoms, and security to adopt your world view. That's actually both sides of the aisle, Democrats and Republicans, and the vast majority in between.
So yes, I feel like I and my children are safe from your ideologies. While you may believe no harm will come, I know better. And so do most other people. In fact, I bet you DO know that there will be war and violence. You just won't say it, because you know what that makes you.
Your ideals are not mine, and in this country, you have no right to force my babies to live in this hellish world that you want. However, IT'S A FREE COUNTRY, so go ahead and keep spreading misinformation and disinformation to whoever will eat it up and not question you. But that person isn't me.
Good luck.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1403 ---Edited to fix a gap in the fence.
You are not the first person I've had attempt to D⁶ me in discussion.
D⁶ - Dishonest attempts to Distract, Deflect, Divert, Disrupt, and/or Derail.
I am putting my very specific question back on the table directly in front of you.
𝓢: I know that people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children.
𝓓: Are you going to claim that you did not succinctly imply that people with beliefs like me would hurt you and your children if not for your location in some magical location?
--- End quote ---
ddd
--- Quote from: 17 1412 ---Me: says a thing.
You: did you say this thing?!
Me: Yup. Sure did.
You: Stop trying to deflect! Did you say this thing?
Me: yup, and I'll say it again.
You: stop trying to deny it!
Me: 🤔
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1416 ---You are not the first person I've had attempt to D⁶ me in discussion.
D⁶ - Dishonest attempts to Distract, Deflect, Divert, Disrupt, and/or Derail.
I am putting my very specific question back on the table directly in front of you.
𝓢: I know that people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children.
𝓓: Are you going to claim that you did not succinctly imply that people with beliefs like me would hurt you and your children.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1458 ---Well then you are calling bs on my story, because I experienced it first hand. I was sitting in the passenger seat of his Ferrari as we screamed by them. That was the reason he gave me when I asked why the cops weren't chasing us. He has them in his pocket.
The whole damn government is a cartel. Hmmm 🤔 I wonder why they haven't investigated who was Epstein and Maxwell's clients and arrested them. Why would that be? Hmmm, that's a real head scratcher, isn't it?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1535 ---you experienced a cop not chasing him. You accepted the reason he gave. And if it were true, that's interesting company you keep. 🤔 Remember I used to go on ride-alongs with my ex, and know there are plenty of reasons why a police officer might not pursue someone speeding, especially if they are going very fast and the city has a no-chase ordinance. Or maybe the cop was taking a leak, or was on radio. I was in the squad car one time when he was called and a guy drove by obviously speeding, and he said "can't catch them all" and responded to the call he just received instead. Just saying.
As I always say, money is power, and Epstein/Maxwell WERE the un-touchables. I thought. If there is a "client list", which is highly doubtful, remember that is a completely different crime from sex trafficking. They could be persecuted for solicitation, if there is evidence. Authorities have to compile evidence regarding each individual "client". That process takes years, as we can see just from the prosecution and conviction of Maxwell alone, when there was already mountains of evidence. Listen to some of these cases via podcast and you'll learn how un-speedy the process really is. I hope that they are able to flush out some clients, if they had sexual contact with underage girls. I actually think that prostitution should be legal, so I don't really care about anyone who was over the age of consent. And local laws would matter too.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1612 ---Lol, he was a business contact when we were doing real estate. We met with him when we went to Oklahoma to check out an opportunity and he showed us a fun time. We have pictures somewhere of both me and Victor sitting in his Ferrari. And it wasn't just me that witnessed just a one time occurrence of him blowing by or even the cops waving at him, lol.
I don't know why it''s hard to believe, cops take a cut all the time.
The only difference between the mafia/cartel and government is the belief that one is legitimate and the other is not.
True criminal types do not fear cops, or incarceration. I remember an interview some journalist did of career criminals in prisons. There's one thing they do fear though and is a deterrent for them, but it has nothing to do with cops, prison or government.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1640 ---if all that were true, then what would be the point of removing government? When it would simply be replaced by mob? With no regulatory body, no oversight?
How do you know police officers have accepted bribes (I'm not talking about Mexico police)? Know how you know? Because they are discovered, prosecuted, and fired, and we get to read about it on the news. Held accountable. Embarrassed. Shamed. Do you think that a mob, with no laws, and no one to answer to, will be more honorable?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1725 ---May I suggest that your sister is very good at Distracting, Deflecting, Diverting, Disrupting, and Derailing discussion away from holding her feet to the fire in regard to things she has said?
Did you not notice that she accused you of being a threat to herself and her children because you share the sin of thinking like I do?
May I suggest that you demand she admit to succinctly implying that people with beliefs like you and I ARE a threat and WOULD DEFINITELY hurt her or her children.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1919 ---I have in the past, though I have not recently.
I'm struggling on a cell phone at the moment. I probably missed her statement that people like us are a threat. And, for some reason, fb will freeze when trying to type a response on my phone, I often lose my entire statement. 😖
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1927 ---Cops are almost never held accountable. They get a slap on the wrist, often paid leave and then they are right back to doing what they do best.
If they are found guilty of misconduct, they don't pay, the state doesn't pay. You pay. Everyone who's getting extorted through their taxes pay the judgement.
And I know a couple of police departments that are known to be corrupt, everyone knows it, even neighboring police districts. And they just keep on doing what they do with no accountability.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 1938 ---since you seem confused about what I said, I'll post it again for you to review. And yes, I still stand by this and will say it a hundred more times.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 2001 ---tell me, how would one know that? I'm curious. How would you know that cops are "almost never held accountable"? My friends, who are current cops in 3 different cities, can tell you what a weight on their shoulders it is to conduct themselves within guidelines because they know that at any moment, someone could call them out and they could be disciplined. Or even if they word something wrong, or even misspell a word or make a typo on their report, they can be held accountable and if that case goes to court they will literally say things like "did you know you spelled this incorrectly?" to throw doubt on their testimony. Lawyers love to use "officer misconduct" to create reasonable doubt. They don't have to show proof, just suggest it. Jurors love it.
I know that there are corrupt cops, and it really pisses me off. But the reality is, they are few and far between. And they seem to concentrate in certain areas (cough cough SOUTH cough cough). Like it or not, the solution is more laws. Like the camera laws they have enacted in some states/counties. But guess what? It will never be the 100% perfection that you want, because cops are still human.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 17 2054 ---𝓢: since you seem confused about what I said, I'll post it again for you to review. And yes, I still stand by this and will say it a hundred more times.
I read it the first time you presented it.
You stand by your claim that your sister is a threat to you.
--- End quote ---
Dale Eastman:
--- Quote from: 18 0917 --- her beliefs? Your beliefs? No, they are not a threat because they will NEVER become common in the USA. That's the point. Is that why you're so mad? Because you know I'm right? And trying to twist what I said? Unsuccessfully, I might add. I especially like the addition of "...WOULD DEFINITELY hurt her or her children." That was some good hyperbole, well done. 😂
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---ah, there it is. Yup I missed that.Well that definitely sounds like you're calling people who think like me and Dale Eastman a threat to you and your kids.
I am curious, how do you propose that the "country that you live in" would prevent our ideas from becoming a reality? Because that definitely sounds like a threat to people who think like me. A threat that you are willing to use against me. Exactly how are you going to prevent my ideas from threatening you?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 0935 --- I think you are forgetting the very first cop you ever knew. The one you did babysitting for when you were a teenager. What did he tell you about cops?
What he told you is the same as other cops, both retired and active, have told me. Actually, that's mild compared to what some have told me.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 0941 --- because very few would ever actually entertain such radical ideals. Most people don't want their kids to die in an unnecessary war, wouldn't you agree? And the only way you could ever force the USA to adopt your ideals is literally through *force*. Which is contrary to your ideals, is it not? Unless through passive aggressive means, of course. But yeah, it is a tiny fringe group you belong to and nobody wants what you want. There is no threat. BECAUSE of where we live.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 0846 ---𝓢: I might add. I especially like the addition of "...WOULD DEFINITELY hurt her or her children.
You chose to excerpt my words to your sister. Fair play because I've been doing the same with your words. My secondary, (or is it trinary?), goal is to understand why you think as you do.
Spin this all you wish... I will not be Distracted, Deflected, Diverted, Disrupted, nor Derailed from focusing on the concept you, yourself, presented.
So I will now repeat:
𝓢: I know that people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children.
𝓓: 𝒜𝓇𝑒 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝑔𝑜𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝓉𝑜 𝒸𝓁𝒶𝒾𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝒶𝓉 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒹𝒾𝒹 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝓈𝓊𝒸𝒸𝒾𝓃𝒸𝓉𝓁𝓎 𝒾𝓂𝓅𝓁𝓎 𝓉𝒽𝒶𝓉 𝓅𝑒𝑜𝓅𝓁𝑒 𝓌𝒾𝓉𝒽 𝒷𝑒𝓁𝒾𝑒𝒻𝓈 𝓁𝒾𝓀𝑒 𝓂𝑒 𝓌𝑜𝓊𝓁𝒹 𝒽𝓊𝓇𝓉 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒶𝓃𝒹 𝓎𝑜𝓊𝓇 𝒸𝒽𝒾𝓁𝒹𝓇𝑒𝓃.
It is a yes or no question. Feel free to add more after your one word answer.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 0955 ---She did it again. You asked a question which she totally ignored.
𝒟𝒪: Exactly how are you going to prevent my ideas from threatening you?
To which I note, exactly what those ideas are have NOT been discussed in a succinct, no room for equivocation manner. (That I've been party to.)
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 1004 ---he told me that cops will lie to you to try to get you to fess up, which is true. And it's not a secret. Listen to Crime Junkie once in a while, you'll see how strategic they are, and they have to be sometimes. It's not like you're privy to some secret information that no one else knows, literally everyone knows this stuff. Heck, they even put it in fictitious crime shows because it is so well known. That's all beside the point, though. Beating a dead horse, and that horse is named good cop/bad cop. The point is, we need cops. Period. And only a fraction of them do "bad" things (much like the rest of the human population. It's almost like they are... Wait for it... Human!). The only way we can ensure better policing is through more training, more regulation, more surveillance, more accountability, etc, which requires more things that you don't like. Rules, laws, education. We should be advocating for THAT, not taking them all away. When you need a PO, you need a PO. I've needed them several times in my life already. They have helped me with J, they have helped me when I was stuck on the side of the road, they have protected me from a crazy ex, and they are currently working on a cold case that I have information about. If they didn't exist, there would have been no one else to call, no one to help, no one to investigate, no one to solve. Just because you have never needed them, doesn't mean other people don't. And, other people don't view them as someone who is supposed to prevent or fix every single problem in order to be worth something. I do believe that you are allowing your own personal experiences color your feelings quite a bit. It's ok to say "man, we've got some racist, a$$hole cops in this country", but it's also ok to acknowledge that most of them went into police work because they thought it would be an honorable profession. They catch a LOT of hate, and they have to develop thick skins. Kind of like hospital workers, now that I think of it. Policing is full of burnout. Btw, you know that PO I used to date? Brian? He quit the department because of burnout. The ACAB people. He couldn't handle it. He was always a sensitive guy, couldn't handle the constant hate. He went back to construction. Just saying, every profession sucks in its own way, but policing has to be one of the worst. Never know if you're going to have a boring day of traffic stops or if you're going to die. That's gotta suck.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 1041 ---just because an answer isn't what you want to hear, that doesn't make it untrue. I've answered questions honestly. Sorry you don't like it.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 1059 ---I did ask you a question about how the country you live in is going to protect you from people who think like me.
That sounds like you're willing to use the violence of the state against peaceful men and women.
(I'll save my response to the above until later)
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 1103 --- what? Why would it be necessary to use violence? I'm saying that the people who live in the USA would never want what you want, so you would have to use force to turn the USA into the kind of society you want. But you won't, since that is against your values. Therefore, in this country, anarchy will never happen. You would probably have more luck in a completely different political atmosphere.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 1125 ---𝓢: just because an answer isn't what you want to hear, that doesn't make it untrue. I've answered questions honestly. Sorry you don't like it.
You are correct. Not hearing answers to my questions is what I don't want to hear. I don't like my questions being ignored.
So I'm going to ask it again...
𝓢: I know that people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children.
𝓓: 𝒜𝓇𝑒 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝑔𝑜𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝓉𝑜 𝒸𝓁𝒶𝒾𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝒶𝓉 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒹𝒾𝒹 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝓈𝓊𝒸𝒸𝒾𝓃𝒸𝓉𝓁𝓎 𝒾𝓂𝓅𝓁𝓎 𝓉𝒽𝒶𝓉 𝓅𝑒𝑜𝓅𝓁𝑒 𝓌𝒾𝓉𝒽 𝒷𝑒𝓁𝒾𝑒𝒻𝓈 𝓁𝒾𝓀𝑒 𝓂𝑒 𝓌𝑜𝓊𝓁𝒹 𝒽𝓊𝓇𝓉 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒶𝓃𝒹 𝓎𝑜𝓊𝓇 𝒸𝒽𝒾𝓁𝒹𝓇𝑒𝓃.
It is a yes or no question. Feel free to add more after your one word answer.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 1144 ---Dale Eastman asked and answered. Repeatedly.
Btw, the way you worded your question is manipulative and misleading, which I am sure is intentional. Nice red herring. You know that I have clarified what I meant, over and over again. Yet you are still hung up on my original comment. It's silly. What is even more silly, is it doesn't matter what my answer is, yes or no, you will manipulate it further. No doubt about it. You're not exactly subtle with your gaslighting and distraction/deflection/diverting etc.
Project much?
You really shouldn't let people, or their comments, live rent free in your head.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 1153 ---𝓢: You know that I have clarified what I meant, over and over again.
You clarify what you meant by first answering YES or NO to my question. Feel free to add more after your one word answer.
𝓢: I know that people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children.
𝓓: 𝒜𝓇𝑒 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝑔𝑜𝒾𝓃𝑔 𝓉𝑜 𝒸𝓁𝒶𝒾𝓂 𝓉𝒽𝒶𝓉 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒹𝒾𝒹 𝓃𝑜𝓉 𝓈𝓊𝒸𝒸𝒾𝓃𝒸𝓉𝓁𝓎 𝒾𝓂𝓅𝓁𝓎 𝓉𝒽𝒶𝓉 𝓅𝑒𝑜𝓅𝓁𝑒 𝓌𝒾𝓉𝒽 𝒷𝑒𝓁𝒾𝑒𝒻𝓈 𝓁𝒾𝓀𝑒 𝓂𝑒 𝓌𝑜𝓊𝓁𝒹 𝒽𝓊𝓇𝓉 𝓎𝑜𝓊 𝒶𝓃𝒹 𝓎𝑜𝓊𝓇 𝒸𝒽𝒾𝓁𝒹𝓇𝑒𝓃.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 1207 ---ok then. No.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 1222 ---𝓢: ok then. No.
Thank you.
Now if your answer of "no" is correct, then why would you claim living in the magical 𝓾nited 𝓢tates would prevent the four of us, I, Dale Eastman, Debra Osborn, Tim Wingate, and Evan Wade, from hurting you and your children?
𝓢: I'm especially thankful for the country I live in today, because I know that people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Dale Eastman again, asked and answered. You can simply read my last response to Debra Osborn or any of the other four or five other responses.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 1231 ---Watch your head, I'm changing tack and I don't want your head to get hit when the boom swings over.
𝓢: I'm especially thankful for the country I live in today, because I know that people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children.
How, exactly, would you and your children be hurt by people with beliefs like mine?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---have you ever been diagnosed with a personality disorder? My guess would be NPD, you display several of the core characteristics, including control freakish behavior and the attitude that other people owe you something, according to your rules. But BPD is a possibility too.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 1253 ---𝓢: My guess would be [...] A non-sequitur.
𝓢: I'm especially thankful for the country I live in today, because I know that people with beliefs like yours cannot hurt me and my children.
How, exactly, would you and your children be hurt by people with beliefs like mine?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 1315 --- 🤷🏼♀️ you didn't answer my question. No further discussion till you answer MY question. Not by your rules this time. My rules. Take as long as you need.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 1324 ---𝓢: have you ever been diagnosed with a personality disorder?
Answer to your non-sequitur question: No.
Now back to my question:
How, exactly, would you and your children be hurt by people with beliefs like mine?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 1423 --- as I have explained MULTIPLE TIMES now: Your beliefs, if translated as you desire into removing government in all forms, would almost certainly lead to war. War leads to death. Understand?
I will not repeat myself anymore. You may ask whatever you want, but if I've already said it over and over again, in not answering. You may have all the time in the world, but I have 4 kids and 3 feet of snow to remove from multiple properties. I remind you that no one owes you their intellectual or emotional labor, and no one owes you an answer to any of your questions. Same in reverse.
I would venture a guess that you have never had a mental health evaluation. So you know, I have dealt with several people with NPD and BPD in my life, and currently still have to deal with two of them in my current interactions. My conversations with you remind me of those who have NPD. Of course, if that were true, you would have little insight and would disregard that diagnosis anyway. Because that's what NPD patients do.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 18 1440 ---Save your reply for tomorrow. I take the long view on many things. Our discussion of ideologies can wait.
𝓢: as I have explained MULTIPLE TIMES now: Your beliefs, if translated as you desire into removing government in all forms, would almost certainly lead to war. War leads to death. Understand?
Your own words right back at you:
𝓢: Project much?
We can move on now.
𝓢: Your beliefs, if translated as you desire into removing government in all forms
What, specifically, do 𝓨𝓞𝓤 mean when 𝓨𝓞𝓤 use the word "𝕘𝕠𝕧𝕖𝕣𝕟𝕞𝕖𝕟𝕥"?
What, specifically, are the traits, properties, attributes, characteristics & elements of 𝕘𝕠𝕧𝕖𝕣𝕟𝕞𝕖𝕟𝕥?
--- End quote ---
1440
--- Quote from: 18 2003 ---Maybe third time's a charm. I'll keep this short and cheat by skipping ahead to your reply to Dale .
War is the health of the state, people generally don't want to go and kill other people.
So how do my ideas cause you harm?
--- End quote ---
Dale Eastman:
--- Quote from: 19 1421 ---I think I've already said. But to reiterate, removing social programs will hurt many people. Volunteerism will not help, because I know that will be your answer. The costs are extraordinary. Removing social programs will hurt people in our family and our friends. And people we've never met, but should care about.
But really, read the room. You remove government from a nation as powerful and with as many natural resources as the USA, someone is going to either bomb it or take it.
That's just as likely as civil war, in a country as polarized as we are.
In either of those scenarios, the result would be the same. Lots of death. And a placement of a new government. Which you will likely hate even more than this one.
Pointless loss of life for no reason.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: 19 2012 ---𝓢: Removing social programs will hurt people in our family and our friends.
Well... That is an answer of a sort. It did not answer either of the questions asked with specificity in regard to you and your children.
𝓓𝓞: So how do my ideas cause you harm?
𝓓: How, exactly, would you and your children be hurt by people with beliefs like mine?
Are you claiming you and your children would be hurt without social programs?
Which programs specifically?
What percentage of programs you have used are government programs and what percentage of programs are from non government organizations (NGO's)?
Reiterating my specific question about YOUR claims...
𝓢: Your beliefs, if translated as you desire into removing government in all forms
What, specifically, do 𝓨𝓞𝓤 mean when 𝓨𝓞𝓤 use the word "𝕘𝕠𝕧𝕖𝕣𝕟𝕞𝕖𝕟𝕥"?
What, specifically, are the traits, properties, attributes, characteristics & elements of 𝕘𝕠𝕧𝕖𝕣𝕟𝕞𝕖𝕟𝕥?
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--- Quote from: 19 2023 ---Dale Eastman I and my children would be hurt due to *war*, as I said.
I also talked about social programs because Debra and I were talking about that vein earlier and I wanted to reiterate. We have a family member who receives social security and other government assistance. I think most of us in our sibling group has been on food stamps at some point. I also have a friend who is elderly, no family, lives very frugally off her social security because she has nothing and no one else. That situation is probably repeated to the tune of hundreds of thousands of elderly people in the USA.
Not interested in starting a new vein, ie defining what government is. I think that we are all aware.
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